Is there a Macedonian language??
September 5 2006 at 11:59 AM
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Arxileas (Login Arxileas)
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From a Bulgarian Dialect to a Macedonian Language!
The 'Macedonian' language, as a self-contained Slav tongue, was completely unknown until the time of the Second World War. The language used by the Slav-speaking inhabitants of southern Yugoslavia and south-western Bulgaria was known to be an idiomatic form of Bulgarian.
After the foundation of the 'Socialist Republic of Macedonia ', attempts were made, for obvious political reasons, to break the linguistic bonds which joined the inhabitants of Yugoslav Macedonia with Bulgaria. For that reason, an army of philologists and scholars of literature was pressed into service to construct a separate written language.
Taking the Perlepes dialect as their starting-point and borrowing widely from Serbian, Bulgarian, Russian and other Slav languages, the 'Macedonian literary language' was created and recognized by the Yugoslav Constitution as one of the country's three official languages.
It is true that in central Macedonia, and even more so in the north, the Slav-speaking population had a Slav dialect of their own. This served only for oral communication (there was no written language) and had a very scanty vocabulary of no more than one thousand to one thousand five hundred words. Of those, the majority were derived from Slav languages, though there were numerous Greek words in correct or corrupt forms and borrowings from Turkish, Vlach and Albanian. In essence, this dialect was the western form of the Bulgarian language spoken in northern Macedonia. The only real difference between the official (eastern) form of the language and the western dialect was the shift in the letter 5' ('promenlivoto 5"). Wherever this letter occurred in official Bulgarian, the western dialect converted it to E: thus, for instance, Bulgarian A5'TO ('ljato', summer) is pronounced 'LETO' in the western dialect.
Naturally enough, when Bulgarian education began to penetrate Macedonia after 1878, the differences between the dialect and official Bulgarian became less pronounced.
The Greek language had been spoken in Macedonia since ancient times, and as everyone knows the entire works of the Macedonian philosopher Aristotle were written in Greek.
As Nikolaos Martis aptly points out, "If we accept that the Macedonians spoke another non-Greek language, then how can this language have disappeared so suddenly and completely that not one text, not one inscription survived, and how did it fail to impose itself given the pride the Macedonians took in their origins?" (12).
Plutarch tells us that when Alexander the Great selected 30,000 Persians to join his army, he gave orders "that they should learn proper Greek and be trained in Macedonian weapons" (13).
The fact that the Macedonians spoke the same language as the other Greeks can also be seen in the work of the Roman historian Livy, who describes the assembly of Greeks in Aetolia in 200 BC as having been attended by "representatives of the Aetolians, the Acarnanians and the Macedon ians, all of whom spoke the same Ianguage" (14).
Professor Nikolaos Andriotis, of the Chair of Linguistics at Thessaloniki University, published his The Federal State of Skopje and its Language in English in 1957 and in Greek in 1960. On p.34, he notes that "In September1944, a committee of scholars was formed at Skopje in order to fix the grammatical form and orthography of the 'Macedon ian language
In an article entitled 'Macedonico' (15), the Italian linguist Vittore Pisani states that "the Macedon ian language is actually an artifact produced for primarily political reasons".
Despite 45 years of endeavor, the new language continues to be an offshoot of Bulgarian not that that has prevented Skopje from proclaiming for domestic and foreign consumption that there is such a thing as a 'Macedonian language'. The historians of Skopje have attempted to demonstrate that their dialect is a separate Slav language, thus further supporting the ethnic differentiation between 'Slav Macedonians' and Bulgarians. However, the Bulgarians themselves have produced a wealth of evidence to show that the 'Macedonian' school-books cited by Skopje were no more than Bulgarian texts printed in the local dialect "for the use of Macedonian Bulgarians", as was printed at the top of the page.
When the inhabitants of a region speak a particular language, they have an educational system which corresponds to it (teachers, schools and pupils). Between 1878 and 1888, the number of Greek schools, academies and nursery schools in Macedonia tripled: there were 58,000 Greek pupils in a total of nearly 900 schools, and that by itself is sufficient proof of the Greekness of Macedonia.
As the modern Skopje historian Kriste Pitoski writes, "the churches and schools of the town of Monastir in the mid-l9th century were in Greek hands" (16).
The number of Greeks among the population of Macedonia is also demonstrated by the memorandum submitted to his government in 1901 by Lecanda Lazarescu, head of Rornanian propaganda: "In villages where the population consists entirely of Vlachs, the Greek schools are packed with pupils while the Romanian schools stand empty. The Vlachs contribute to the running of the Greek schools and, when they die, leave their fortunes to the cause of disseminating Greek education" (17).
There can thus be no doubt that the 'Macedon ian language 'was invented to serve specific purposes. Since 1944, the linguists of Skopje have been engaged in a massive campaign to rid the Slav-Macedonian dialect of all its Bulgarian features and replace them with Serbo-Croatian words. They were so successful in this that a mere ten years after the attempt began the Bulgarian Macedonians of Pirin had difficulty in understanding radio programmes broadcast in Skopje.
9. The Pseudo-Macedonian Church of Skopje
The 'Orthodox Church of Macedonia ', founded in Skopje in 1967, which was initially autonomous and is now autocephalous, has done much to spread propaganda about the non-existent 'Macedonian Question'. Soon after its own foundation, this 'Church' set up a 'bishopric' in the United States.
It should be borne in mind, first of all, that no other Yugoslav republic has an independent church. This 'Church', founded in violation of all the rules of Orthodoxy, is not recognised either by the Ecumenical Patriarchate or by the Patriarch-ate of Serbia or indeed by any other Orthodox church. To cap it all, the pseudo-Orthodox Church of Macedonia was unique in world history as the only church to be set up by a Communist state which officially persecuted the Christian religion!
The irregularity of the founding of the 'Orthodox Church of Macedonia' by Presidential Decree and in the face of objections from the Patriarchate of Serbia broke the spiritual bonds between the Slavs in the Republic of Skopje and the Serbian nation.
Tito himself undertook to inaugurate this new ecclesiastical policy. On 28 May 1958, he received the hierarchy of the Serbian Church at the Presidential Palace, and, replying to an address by Patriarch Vincent of Serbia, said: "It is my wish that you should solve the problems of the Church of Macedonia in the best possible way and in accordance with the interests of our country" (18).
Despite Tito's personal intervention, the Serbian Church refused to settle the matter, and the years which followed were marked by a tug-of-war between the Church of Serbia and the governing Communist Party over whether a 'Macedonian Church' should be formed.
In the end, an assembly of clergy and laity controlled by Skopje met at Ochrid on 17 July 1967 and bestowed autocephalous status on the 'Church of Macedonia The Serbian Patriarchate reacted immediately, and at an extra-ordinary assembly on 14 and 15 September 1967 decided that the irregular activities of the 'Church of Macedonia' had severed all bonds between it and the Orthodox Church as a whole. The assembly went as far as to describe the 'Macedonian Church' as a "schismatic religious organisation".
All students of the subject are agreed that the objective of Tito's government was not to meet the spiritual needs of the faithful under a Communist regime in a more satisfactory manner. Tito used his political fabrication for the purposes of propaganda and to promote Skopje's positions abroad. Despite the limited role which the pseudo-Macedonian Church has played in domestic developments, it has to be admitted that it has been an effective means of disorientating and misinforming emigrants from the broader geographical area of Macedonia (Greeks and Bulgarians).
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Anonymous
(Login voden) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
No score for this post September 5 2006, 12:18 PM
DA ZHIVE MACEDONIA... To my Macedonian brothers from Republica Macedonia the Macedonian name belongs to u protect it and cherish it.
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Arxileas
(Login Arxileas) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
Score 5.0 (1 person) September 5 2006, 12:32 PM
'Ελα τότε ζιμμη γενις [Ελληνίκο ονόμα δεν είνε που εχίες], να τραγουδίσουμε μαζή άμα εσίε Μακεδόνας...Υια τιν Ελλάδα μας...
ΑΝΥΠΟΧΩΡΗΤΟΙ ΣΤΟ ΟΝΟΜΑ
Ο ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΚΟΣ ΑΓΩΝΑΣ ΣΥΝΕΧΙΖΕΤΑΙ
Εμείς οι Μακεδόνες, που είχαμε τη μεγάλη και μοναδική στον κόσμο και ολόκληρη την παγκόσμια Ιστορία χαρά, να βγάλουμε ένα Φίλιππο, έναν Αριστοτέλη, ένα Μέγα Αλέξανδρο, έναν Άγιο Δημήτριο, έναν Άγιο Νέστωρα, έναν Βασίλειο Β΄, ένα Άγιο Κύριλλο και Μεθόδιο, έναν Ίωνα Δραγούμη, έναν Κώττα, έναν Άγρα, έναν Παύλο Μελά, ένα Άγιον Όρος, στ΄ αλήθεια πιστεύουν πως μπορεί να καταδεχθούμε να μαγαριστεί το όνομά μας και να επιτρέψουμε στην αρχοντική μας ρίζα να ξεριζωθεί και να ριχθεί στη φωτιά των Σκοπιανικών συμφερόντων και των ξένων κομιτο-σχεδίων;
Εάν δεχόταν ποτέ ο Αλέξανδρος και ο Παύλος και ο Ίων, τότε θα δεχόμασταν και εμείς…Δηλαδή ποτέ! Η ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ είναι διαλεγμένη από το Θεό μέσα στην Ιστορία του κόσμου! Για αυτό και έστειλε επίτηδες, με ειδική πρόσκληση, σε όραμα Μακεδόνα, να καλέσει τον Απόστολο Παύλο να έρθει να μας διδάξει για το Χριστό μας!
Το όνομά μας, είναι η κληρονομιά και η κιβωτός των ενδόξων προγόνων μας! Ούτε ζωντανοί, ούτε νεκροί καταδέχονται οι Μακεδόνες να δώσουν έστω και την οξεία από το όνομα Μακεδονία!
Όλος ο κόσμος να αναγνωρίσει τα Σκόπια σαν δήθεν «Μακεδονία» εμείς δεν τα αναγνωρίζουμε! Ούτε οι τάφοι, ούτε οι αρχαίες επιγραφές, ούτε τα αρχαία, ελληνιστικά και βυζαντινά γράμματα αποδέχονται κάτι τέτοιο!
Όλη η γη να πει τα Σκόπια «Μακεδονία», εμείς οι γνήσιοι και νόμιμοι Μακεδόνες ούτε που θα σταματήσουμε μια στιγμή τον αγώνα! Το δίκαιο και η αλήθεια γεμίζουν με ανεξάντλητη δύναμη την ψυχή μας!
Όλη η ανθρωπότητα να αναγνωρίσει «Μακεδονία» τα Σκόπια, εμείς οι αληθινοί Μακεδόνες, οι Έλληνες, δεν τα αναγνωρίζουμε στον αιώνα τον άπαντα! Ούτε ο δίκαιος Θεός τα αναγνωρίζει, ούτε ο Αϊ Δημήτρης, ούτε η καθάρια αγία Ορθοδοξία ολάκερη!
Κι άμα δεν αναγνωρίζει ο Θεός, κρίμα πάει ο κόπος τους όλος! Θα χαθεί σαν ομίχλη, όταν ο δεκαεξάκτινος χρυσός ήλιος θα θαμπώσει τα γκρίζα μάτια της Οικουμένης.
Έλληνες, ο Μακεδονικός Αγώνας συνεχίζεται! ΤΗ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ ΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΑ ΜΑΤΙΑ ΜΑΣ!
Έλληνες, όλοι για τη Μακεδονία και η Μακεδονία για όλους!
Your score: 5
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Anonymous
(Login Aznavour) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
No score for this post September 5 2006, 12:37 PM
Makedonija belongs to slavs.
In ancient times there were greeks maybe. But today, slavs occupy makedonija.
As in the example of anatolia. There were 2 and half million -maybe more- greeks in anatolia before 1920. But today anatolia belongs to turks and called as turkish country.
So, makedonija is slav. And will be slav in the future.
Greece go to attica.!!!
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Arxileas
(Login Arxileas) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
Score 5.0 (1 person) September 5 2006, 12:45 PM
My Tito did do a good job, guy's seriously it's time to wake up, Hellas want's to help you and all you do is try and steal History which all know very well Hellas creates History so did the Romans and many nations. One cannot be a Macedonian just because they live on approx %10 of anceint Hellenic soil.
I feel sad this day and age propagandas exist...
Your score: 5
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Anonymous
(Login nitkov) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
No score for this post September 5 2006, 1:15 PM
i guess this is titos granfathers job:
1851
Bulgarian Comments on the language of J.H. Dzinot ...May the inhabitants of Skopje and those who speak similarly forgive me, but they do not understand our language and cannot speak either... "Bolgarski", Tsarigradski Vestnik, nbr. 55 (6.X.1851, p. 19).
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Anonymous
(Login nitkov) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
No score for this post September 5 2006, 1:21 PM
May 9, 1888
Salonika. Temko Popov to Despot Badzovic ...I shall try to write to you, as far as possible, in our language, replacing the words I don't know with Bulgarian ones. What else can I do, Despot? While our language could one dictate to the other Slav languages, it has now remained the poorest of all, and like a begger, it serves either Bulgarian or Serbian....Let us no lie to ourselves, Despot, tha national spirit in Macedonia has reached such a stage today that even if Jesus Christ had come to the Earth, he would not have been able to persuade the Macedonian that he was a Bulgarian or a Serb, excepting those Macedonians in whom Bulgarian propaganda has already taken root. In order to convince yourself of this, you must have Bulgarianism in view. Bulgarian propaganda has now been working for 20 years in Macedonia, in the blindest of times - when Hellenism, coming from and entirely alien nation, started to take root in the Macedonian heart; but the Macedonians, seeing a ray of Slavism, rejected everything as if eyeless, without paying attention to the difference. It was sufficient for them to have broken with Hellenism. But what is to be done now i.e. after twenty years of Bulgarian striving, indoctrination and unsparing pecuniary sacrifaces? My dear Despot, everybody does what is natural, but unexpected for the Bulgarians, that is, now every Macedonian admits he is not a Bulgarian and declares loudly his nation, even though he may stilluse Bulgarian means, not having his own, of course. ... Your friend T. Popov Narodna Biblioteka, Belgrade - fond - Jovan Hadzi Vasiljevic II 413/III May 9 1988.
1890
Karl Hron: "The Nationality of the Macedonian Slavs": ...From my own studies of the Serbo-Bulgarian dispute I came to the conviction that the Macedonians are an individual nation, both by their history and their language; thus, they are neither Serbs nor Bulgarians... Karl Hron, Das Volksthum der Slaven Makedoniens, Wien 1890, S. 4-5, 15-17, 20, 22,26
well, tito maight brainwash this man, he lived in this time, he was 15-16 years old than :
1907-1908
The Macedonian Villages ...I asked him what language they spoke, and my Greek interpreter carelessly rendered the answer Bulgare. The man himself had said Makedonski. I drew attention to this word and the witness explained that he did not consider the rural dialect used in Macedonia the same as Bulgarian, and refused to call it by that name. It was Macedonian, a word to which he gave the Slav form of Makedonski, but which I was to hear farther north in the Greek form of Makedonike. And so the "Bulgarophone" villagers are no longer willing to admit that they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a new term of their own accord, and henceforth their dialect, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as "Macedonian". My Athenian friends were delighted when I told them of this on my return. It should give even greater pleasure to those Bulgarian agents who are so anxious to see the Macedonians thought they are Macedonians. Allen Upward, The East End of Europe, London 1908, pp. 204-205
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Arxileas
(Login Arxileas) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
Score 5.0 (1 person) September 5 2006, 1:39 PM
May 9, 1888 <--------That is as far as you can go? actualy the lie started from Russia before this, only for Kuzman Sapkarev, to write this which is still kept in Sophia Bulgarian musium for all to examine. The very man who you praise as a folk hero is the very man who said todays Macedonians are Bulgarians, My God how obvious is it.
Here it is nitkov.
"Kuzman Sapkarev"
You only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia' anything:
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10 to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced: they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the "Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original In Bulgarian:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
When nitkov replies a nerve has been hit
Your score: 5
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Arxileas
(Login Arxileas) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
No score for this post September 5 2006, 1:43 PM
"1851
Bulgarian Comments on the language of J.H. Dzinot ...May the inhabitants of Skopje and those who speak similarly forgive me, but they do not understand our language and cannot speak either... "Bolgarski", Tsarigradski Vestnik, nbr. 55 (6.X.1851, p. 19)."
And any links for this as I missed it. Need back up because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Anonymous
(Login nitkov) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
No score for this post September 5 2006, 1:55 PM
ok, now its not tito, right? ...its strange how do u change the subject of discussion wether it suits ur aims i like that
now, we are dealing with letter from 1888...lets make no problem with a fact its a letter from bulgarian sources, lets presume its not fake. anyways, noone ever denied bulgarphiles in macedonia existed. but how about this letter i posted above, where bulgarians clearly stating, almost 40 years before this letter u provide, that inhabitans of skopje cant understand and cant speak their language:
1851
Bulgarian Comments on the language of J.H. Dzinot ...May the inhabitants of Skopje and those who speak similarly forgive me, but they do not understand our language and cannot speak either... "Bolgarski", Tsarigradski Vestnik, nbr. 55 (6.X.1851, p. 19).
so what language do they speak?
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10 to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient name,
we can question this letter from many aspect because its a complete lie that people of macedonia didnt knew anything about macedonian name...i can only laugh on thisone.
because one other letter, written by petar r. slaveykov in 1874 to bulgarian exarch says that macedonian idea existed much before and its run by domestic intelectuals:
February 1874
A letter from P.R. Slaveykov to the Bulgarian Exarch:
....Now, as then or twenty years ago, we are dealing with the Macedonian question. In talks with few Macedonian "patriots" I have understood that this movement, which had been only bare words till a few years ago, is now clear and precise thought - "The Macedonians are not Bulgarians" and they persistenly strive, regardless of the price, to obtain a separate church of their own....
Your spiritual child P.R. Slaveykov S. Dimevski, Dve pisma na P. R. Slaveykov za makedonizmot. - Razgledi XIV, 5(1972), p.561-566
u loose again... now, i expect u to change a subject of discussion in greek style once again...
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Anonymous
(Login nitkov) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
No score for this post September 5 2006, 1:57 PM
And any links for this as I missed it.
hahahahah....first u provide something witout any link and then when i provide qoute that fvck ur chicken brain u ask for a link...hahahha...LOOSER! u got the source, move ur lazy ass and find it for urself...
Score 1 2 3 4 5 (5=Excellent)
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Arxileas
(Login Arxileas) Re: Is there a Macedonian language??
Score 5.0 (1 person) September 5 2006, 2:14 PM
Oh I see so your sources are from propgandastic books right off course should have known by now nitkov, so you can't back them, all your claims.
Pitty though, calm down man no need to be insultive only the stressed out ones do that.
nitkov come when you get reall hard core data because we can and have shown you artifacts that can be touched examined not books. Till then good luck amigos
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I am Arxileas p.s note caught a Greek whos got a Slavic concious "Voden" nitkov can anyone make sence of him
Link;
http://www.network54.com/Forum/64595/threa...post=1157458456