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> December 25th - Celtic Pagan Festival
Minimalistix
post Dec 14 2006, 04:07 PM
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why i refuse to celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December. It was originally a Celtic Pagan Festival and chosen to be the day to delebrate Christ's birth as it would be easier to convert the Celts into Christianity by choosing a same festival day. Thus why the 6th of January is the most closest and accurate date of His birth.

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source: http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/blknow11.htm

Pagan Celts had celebrations around the time of the winter solstice, in part to brighten the darkest days, in part to propitiate the gods to allow the sun to return!

The Christian Church took over the festival but some of the traditions harked back to the pagan roots. The Yule log was burned in the fireplace, there was kissing under the misletoe (related to a Druidic fertility rite) and the house was decorated with holly (evergreen trees were regarded with reverence). Of course such activities were not confined to the Celts or to Scotland.

After the Church Reformation in the 16th century, the celebration of Christmas was frowned on by the Kirk, which regarded it as a "Popish festival".

Mass was banned in Scotland at that time and "Christmas" or "Christ's Mass" was included in that.

There are records of charges being brought against people for keeping "Yule" as it was called in Scotland.

Amazingly, this dour, joy-crushing attitude lasted for 400 years. Until the 1960s, Christmas Day was a normal working day for most people in Scotland.

So if there is a specifically "Scottish" aspect to Christmas, it is that it was not celebrated.

Most of our "traditional" Christmas celebrations (other than the religious festival) originated in the 19th century (Prince Albert, Queen Victoria's husband, had a lot to do with it!) and so England and Scotland developed the same traditions from around that time - Christmas trees, decorations, Santa Claus, presents, stockings at the end of the bed, Christmas Carols, Christmas cards etc. Christmas cards are said to have been invented in Edinburgh in the mid-nineteenth century
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RaNdOm
post Dec 14 2006, 06:48 PM
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why do u choose weatern sources we greeks have nothing to do with the celts.

however, the stuff about the winter solstice and moving of celbration is correct however this happened very early within christianity like 2nd century, so theres obviously a link with celtic paganism and greco roman paganism.

the 6th of jan is and always has been the celbration of theophania, epiphany literally the revelation of God, on this one day 2 events of God's revelation was celebrated.

the seperation of christ's baptism and his birth to 2 distict days has not only been sanctified in time but serves to emphasise both as 2 distict events and celebrations of God's revelation to humankind.

you cannot rfuse to celebrate the birth of our saviour on a day that the whole of Christondom has been celebrating it for over 1700 years.


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Minimalistix
post Dec 14 2006, 08:43 PM
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i dont see why we use half Old Calender and half New?

its gotta be one or the other - and to be honest, im not sure with the history behind as to why Greeks go by the New Calender for some events
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RaNdOm
post Dec 14 2006, 10:40 PM
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what i was talking bout before wasnt an issue of calander but rather the historical development of celebrations.


Nonetheless i will offer here a brief account of the development of our current calender.

generally the yearly calender as we know it today(1 feature being 29 days in feb each leap year) was instituted sumtime in the reign of the Roman Emperor Julius Ceasar. Calenders as we know are human calculations of the days weeks seasons etc for this reason the calender is directly related to the sun and stars and moon etc.
the Julian calender also had other (apart from feb) distiguishing features such aas fixed days for certain solar events of a year: 25th March was the vernal equinox, 25th December winter solctice etc. In this way alligning certain seasons to certain months eg year after year after century winter would begin in December.

when the empire was Christianised and in fact even before that, significant salvific events were considered perfect candidates for celebration on these key days of the year. this is the reason why the annunciation is March 25 and christmas Dec 25 and there are others that i cant think of right now.

however the julian calender had a problem in relation to the actual events of the sun. by the 4th century AD it had been noticed that the vernal equinox was no longer happening on march 25 but on march 21. the emperor however, probably constantine the great, thaought it to difficult to change the calender of the whole world for a few days and when it came to the making of the Paschal canon(the rule that determines when easter would be celebrated) in the section that says easter cannot be celebrated before the vernal equinox, they added a clause saying, taken as march 21 not march 25.

by the 16th century the julian calender was off by 11 days not including the 4th century adjustment. so in reality it was out 15 days. as you can expect it was greeks who figured this out but under the turks they could do nothing, besides the turks didnt use the julian calender anyway so they didnt care.

a few years later some italians came accross the research and further refined it and proposed a solution to the pope. He didnt want anything to do with it but eventually decided to impliment it, and in october 1 year they literally clocked over 11 days in 1 night. (eg the day after wed oct 5 became thurs oct 17). From that day on the whole of western christianity(most of europe) was using the revised julian calender which came to be known as the gregorian calender.

thus from the 16th century until today the western christians use the gregorian calender and all eastern christians(orthodox and oriental) use the julian calender.

after WWI and the freedom of many orthodox christian nations there were discussions to change from the julian to the gregorian so that the whole world can use the same dating system. it happened firstly only in the political sphere. but it was hard for people to be living in a world that said today is the 13th of december and as soon as they walked into church it was the 1st of december.

for this reason ALL Orthodox churches HAD agreed to switch to the gregorian calender so that there would be no more confusion amongst the people.
unfortunately many conservatives disagreed with the switch and in 1922 under Patriarch Meletios only the church of greece and the patriarchate on constantinople agreed to change but agreed only to change half (at this point I must add that in the church year there are 2 cycles the daily cycle of fixed feasts; that is, Jan 1 - Dec 31 and the easter cycle)

it is for this reason that the greeks use the (new) Gregorian calender for the daily cycle; thus there is no confusion about what day it is, and the (old) Julian calender for easter; thus all orthodox celebrate the most impoetant feast together.

this comprimise of using both calenders is known as the Meletian calender.



lol sorry about such a long discourse but I hope it helps


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niko
post Dec 14 2006, 11:12 PM
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Don't know why you put so much faith in organised religion anyway. Calendar or no calendar, either way both days are probably wrong. Celebrate the event, nobody cares about what day it happened because noone actually knows


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RaNdOm
post Dec 14 2006, 11:17 PM
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thats true it most likely happened in april anyway

as long as we celbrate it and understand its meaning to us

thus its true everything apart from the purely religious aspect of christmas is pagan (just to get back to the topic)

This post has been edited by RaNdOm: Dec 14 2006, 11:20 PM


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Minimalistix
post Dec 15 2006, 02:30 PM
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i know, like where did the idea of Santa Clause on Reindeers, Milk and Biscuits and Presents come about ? thats not what Christmas is all about, or being with family and other malakies Hollywood children movies preach - its about honouring and celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ
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post Dec 15 2006, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE(Minimalistix @ Dec 15 2006, 03:30 PM) [snapback]71043[/snapback]

i know, like where did the idea of Santa Clause on Reindeers, Milk and Biscuits and Presents come about ? thats not what Christmas is all about, or being with family and other malakies Hollywood children movies preach - its about honouring and celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ


It comes from those who try to obscure and bastardise the teachings and meanings of religion. I would have thought that would be obvious.
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Shorty
post Dec 16 2006, 08:55 PM
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The whole santa clause thing came from St Nicholas, who would gather gifts for the poor of his time under a big tree in the churches backyard and he would distribute these before christmas.
Santa clause was based on this, and Coca cola invested in making some old man wear red and white and give gifts to the children. Pretty much nothing to do with the birth of christ, but does related to the acts of St Nicholas.
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nate
post Jan 16 2007, 07:56 PM
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I refuse to celebrate on the 25th because it's quite frankly not Christmas if you are Orthodox.

The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople changed the Calendar for Orthodox Greeks for hope of better relations with Catholic Western Europeans. The new calendar was made using all old pagan dates, so as a follower of Orthodoxy I refuse to celebrate pagan festivals.


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Blaze
post Jan 21 2007, 05:40 PM
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actually the 25th of december was Appollo's birthday.....


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post Jan 22 2007, 07:28 PM
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The Greek Orthodox Church, like the Christian Church, celebrates the birth of Christ on December 25. That date was picked because on the same day in the Mediterranean area they used to celebrate a the god of the Sun (Apollo). And, because the difference between light and darkness is such an important aspect of the December month, all our Greek traditions and customs are still based on that contrast of darkness and light.
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RaNdOm
post Jan 22 2007, 11:14 PM
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QUOTE(nate @ Jan 16 2007, 08:56 PM) [snapback]74450[/snapback]

I refuse to celebrate on the 25th because it's quite frankly not Christmas if you are Orthodox.

The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople changed the Calendar for Orthodox Greeks for hope of better relations with Catholic Western Europeans. The new calendar was made using all old pagan dates, so as a follower of Orthodoxy I refuse to celebrate pagan festivals.






The agreement of changing to the new calender was actually made by all orthodox not just Greeks. It just happens that the ecumenical patriarchate was the only one that went ahead with it.

the choice to go to the new was mainly for the church's dating to be in line with the contemporary political dating system of the countries. not having anything to do with western Christians.

And Thirdly the new calender has nothing at all to do with paganism it is precisely the same as the old calender in every single way but is just 13 days forward to be able to line up with the sun's cycle.

think of it as a permanent daylight savings adjustment coz thats all it is, EXACTLY THE SAME CALENDER just wound 13 days forward.


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nate
post Jan 23 2007, 06:16 PM
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.. with the Birth of Christ placed to keep the pagans happy in the Holy Roman Empire.


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RaNdOm
post Jan 23 2007, 10:15 PM
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yeah but wasnt that done in the old calender like over 1500 years ago

besides, it wasnt to keep the pagans happy but rather as a chance to christianise them and their celebration


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nate
post Jan 23 2007, 10:51 PM
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The Holy Roman Empire compromised the date to try and tempt the Pagans over.
The Orthodox faith that use the 25th instead of the 7th do so because of politics trying to gain western favour in the past.


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RaNdOm
post Jan 23 2007, 11:01 PM
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do u even know how the Old Calender works???

the date of Christmas u are describing as jan 7 IS in fact the 25th of december.

if u were to go to church (old calender) early enough on the morning of Jan 7 u would here them reading


On the twenty-fifth day of this month we celebrate the birth of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ according to the flesh.

you see christmas IS on the 25th no matter what u do it has nothing to do with the west.

christmas was celebrated on dec 25 when christianity was still united


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nate
post Jan 23 2007, 11:45 PM
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The old calendar is not used politically by any nation, only religion wise. So therefore THE DATES REFER TO THE NEW CALENDAR.
THEREFORE the 7th is not the 25th.

As per new calendar, the 25th is a pagan holiday and a blasphemy to Christ.
The 7th is the true date, going by the political calendar we use here and in every nation.

The 'revised' date for Christmas is a joke.


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RaNdOm
post Jan 24 2007, 12:27 AM
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u have no understanding of how the calender works at all and u keep comenting with your limited knowledge and with incorrect facts.

i seem to have to repeat myself.
Trust me I'm right I've studied this extensively and not just some bakyard job reading sum books from church ive studied this at tertiary level

Jan 7 according to the new calender IS Dec 25 according to the old calender
THEY ARE THE SAME DAY OF THE YEAR SIMPLY LABELED WITH DIFFERENT NUMBERS BY DIFFERENT SYSTEMS.

consequently Jan 8 of the new calender is Dec 26 of the old and so forth

the Feast Days of the church year are not celebrated on different days in each calender they are all on the same DATE it just so happens that that date doesnt coincide on both callenders


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Minimalistix
post Jan 24 2007, 11:51 AM
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u r wrong Random. The Armenians use the New Calander, but dated it to the same as the Old Calender, now tell me which date the Armenians celebrate Christmas, and all your arguements will be prooven wrong wink.gif
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